2nd gen pics

[89vert]

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/8/web/212000-212999/212029_1_full.jpg

[79 Z28]

ok that fucker has my rims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those are knockoffs though, i got the real deal american racing ones ;D

[CamarofreaK]

i got a few nice ones on my comp il share with ya guys i guess ;D

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[CamarofreaK]

;D

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[CamarofreaK]

.

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[CamarofreaK]

i dunno wat the hell is up with this thing but il throw it in here

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[79 Z28]

.
that motor would look better in my car ;D

[Dizzle]

my uncles camaro, he's building up a engine and is hoping to break beyond 10's. he's got 2 big bottles of Nitrous just for a guarantee. his last dyno (before cams decided to break and break alot of parts in engine) was at 950whp. scary shit.

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[Dizzle]

he also drives this

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[Dizzle]

1966 corvette stingray with 427 BB. first year 427 at that ;)

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[79 Z28]

tell him to lend me the motor out of his camaro ;)

[Dizzle]

you dont want it right now :P needs LOTS of work from the cam companys fuck-up.

[79 Z28]

you dont want it right now :P needs LOTS of work from the cam companys fuck-up.
shoulda gone with less spring pressure then ;D its ok ill still take it, theres got to be something in there worth something and not broken :P

[89RS]

i want his vette. original 427 car? good way to spend 80-100000

[Dizzle]

just off the phone with him: he's at the shop fixing and getting new cams installed. engine should be running and in need of tune by next week. camaro should be at mission in a few months (he needs slicks). right now his boat with 396 is main goal to get going. its summer time and he wants on the water!
he'll be at mission with the vette soon!

[Dizzle]

i want his vette. original 427 car? good way to spend 80-100000


he paid 60. guy was selling a convertible version and he wanted that, missed it by 20 minutes. it wasnt the BB tho.

[79 Z28]

just off the phone with him: he's at the shop fixing and getting new cams installed. engine should be running and in need of tune by next week. camaro should be at mission in a few months (he needs slicks). right now his boat with 396 is main goal to get going. its summer time and he wants on the water!
he'll be at mission with the vette soon!
cam(s)? :-\ does it have vtec? :-X

[Dizzle]

just off the phone with him: he's at the shop fixing and getting new cams installed. engine should be running and in need of tune by next week. camaro should be at mission in a few months (he needs slicks). right now his boat with 396 is main goal to get going. its summer time and he wants on the water!
he'll be at mission with the vette soon!
cam(s)? :-\ does it have vtec? :-X


i'm just getting over a concussion and its QUITE hard to type still. sorry about the typo.

[stevem]

hotchkis 2nd gen

sorry homos...needed to make space

[formula mark]

hotchkis 2nd gen

Fuck me, that car is gorgeous. :o
Me wantee.

[Dizzle]

orange one is sexy!

[allpontiacs]

Here's one of mine.

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[79 Z28]

whats the specs on it?

[ReEntry Racer]

This is my last 2nd gen...still out there somewhere... :(

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[79 Z28]

specs? ;D

[ReEntry Racer]

461 BBC 505 lb.ft. @ 4400 RPM, never got a RWHP figure because the tires wouldn't stick to the rollers, even when chained down...The hood is all steel, hand made in the shape of a scaled up 'shaker'. WS6 Turbo TA car originally with a 301 and slushbox, I converted it to the BBC, T10, 3.73 gears, Holley 850 DP, true duals, adjustable shocks w/individual air shocks in the rear, all Energy Susp. components, yada yada yada. Sold it to get the Firehawk, sure miss the power :'(
These shots were taken during road race driver training at Mission in '99 as it blew away the "real" race cars ;D

[allpontiacs]

BBC in a Pontiac?!?? Blasphemer!!! Hm specs on mine, eh? Well, it's got a 301/auto. 2.41 pegleg, shitty suspension, and a fairly straight body...pretty much bone stock, in other words. I managed to run a 16.68 at around 85mph. This is the car that will hopefully be running 10's in a year or two. No, not with the 301! A well built PONTIAC 455.

[79 Z28]

BBC in a Pontiac?!?? Blasphemer!!! Hm specs on mine, eh? Well, it's got a 301/auto. 2.41 pegleg, shitty suspension, and a fairly straight body...pretty much bone stock, in other words. I managed to run a 16.68 at around 85mph. This is the car that will hopefully be running 10's in a year or two. No, not with the 301! A well built PONTIAC 455.
clearly everyone knows a BBC owns pontiac ;D dont forget all the pontiacs that came with chevy motors ;)

[allpontiacs]

I know all about Pontiacs with Chebby motors, my 81 Formula came with one...and then I put a 400 Pontiac in it! ;D

[79 Z28]

I know all about Pontiacs with Chebby motors, my 81 Formula came with one...and then I put a 400 Pontiac in it! ;D
lol why stop there? 455 ;D

[ReEntry Racer]

As I'm exposed now I may as well confess I put a 454 in a '76 Formula too...I was drag racing the modded 400 Pontiac engine and autoX'ing it too, but got PO'd when the oiling system couldn't keep up to the suspension, tires and brakes I had installed. While I was looking into a dry sump oiling setup I found the 454 in a burned up Vette in Kamloops, and the rest is history. I've always driven Pontiacs, but never kept the stock engine for long, even my '60 Parisienne lost the 283/powerslide and was retired with a Vette LT1 350, T10, 12 bolt, etc. running gear. GM eventually got it right with the TPI LB9 and L98, and have done the right thing ever since, and still figured out how to get an LS1 to market when the F body went away. Sorry, I'm old enough to be a true Pontiac guy, but I just don't have the patience for the work it takes just to be even-up with a bowtie engine. I see you're in Abby, so when you drive around the Townline area, watch out for my old blue beast, and don't try him unless your 400 is very special... ;)

[allpontiacs]

Ah, the 400 is long yanked and the car is sitting in the driveway waiting for a resto. :-[ Seriously, man, Poncho oiling systems are pretty good. Are you sure you didn't have other problems? It's not hard at all to make a big inch Poncho run with a big inch Chebby these days. 11 seconds is the average these days for a well built driveable Pontiac motor...

[ReEntry Racer]

:-[ Seriously, man, Poncho oiling systems are pretty good. Are you sure you didn't have other problems?


Pontiac engines have oil distribution intended for hauling station-wagons around. They work well in a straight line but fail if asked to go around corners at autoX rates. Its embarassing to hear all your lifters clacking when you sit in the stop-box. None of brand C's engines have ever had that problem.

[79 Z28]

:-[ Seriously, man, Poncho oiling systems are pretty good. Are you sure you didn't have other problems?


Pontiac engines have oil distribution intended for hauling station-wagons around. They work well in a straight line but fail if asked to go around corners at autoX rates. Its embarassing to hear all your lifters clacking when you sit in the stop-box. None of brand C's engines have ever had that problem.
brand C 8)

[formula mark]

:-[ Seriously, man, Poncho oiling systems are pretty good. Are you sure you didn't have other problems?

Pontiac engines have oil distribution intended for hauling station-wagons around. They work well in a straight line but fail if asked to go around corners at autoX rates. Its embarassing to hear all your lifters clacking when you sit in the stop-box. None of brand C's engines have ever had that problem.
brand C 8)

You have hepatitis c

[allpontiacs]

Your case is the first I've ever heard. I've talked to a few guys who autocross Ponchos and I've never heard a single complaint about the oiling systems. How long ago did you try and build this thing? It's only been in the last few years that people have actually started to figure this engine out, and the aftermarket has responded in kind with parts that AREN'T shit. And besides, at 80+psi of oil pressure from the pump I honestly can't see any possibility of oil starvation no matter how hard the corner. Did you ever talk to any of the big dogs (Dave Bisschop, the Hands, Kauffmann, etc) before you gave up? I still contend there may have been something wrong with your oiling system...BBC's really aren't any better than Pontiacs in ANY regard. There's just always been more of an aftermarket for them until lately.

[ReEntry Racer]

Oil pumps make oil flow, restriction to flow cause pressure. The reason for Pontiacs having higher oil pressure (and requirements for it) is the poor flow characteristics! Small passages and too many of them. Where does the oil pump output on a SBC or BBC go first? Where does it go first in a Pontiac 400 or 455? Have a look in the drawings in the front section of their manuals. The other issue is cavitation. Even the basic Chev oil sump is superior to the Pontiac layout.
I hope you don't think I'm anti-Poncho, I have owned 10 of them...I just have problems with an engine design that falls short of the acknowledged best design. I do believe in torque, and with the bore/stroke ratios and rod lengths in stock big pontiac engines, they win there.

[79 Z28]

Your case is the first I've ever heard. I've talked to a few guys who autocross Ponchos and I've never heard a single complaint about the oiling systems. How long ago did you try and build this thing? It's only been in the last few years that people have actually started to figure this engine out, and the aftermarket has responded in kind with parts that AREN'T shit. And besides, at 80+psi of oil pressure from the pump I honestly can't see any possibility of oil starvation no matter how hard the corner. Did you ever talk to any of the big dogs (Dave Bisschop, the Hands, Kauffmann, etc) before you gave up? I still contend there may have been something wrong with your oiling system...BBC's really aren't any better than Pontiacs in ANY regard. There's just always been more of an aftermarket for them until lately.
thats where you forget of the essance of the motor, its all physics man, head design like port size, placement angles, valve angle, size, relations to cooling ports, intake design, valvetrain geometry, bottom end design like bore stroke ratios, block design, inc. oil passages which re entry is concerning about.there are so many things and combos of the geometry that make a motor what it is. its no simple answer. the reason why chevy motors are so popular and are widely supported more then any other style, is because its a design that just worked, for many different levels. from stock applications and characteristics to high levels of performance, the chevy motor was a better design, it worked well, was cheap, effective and made good hp and torque combinations. im not saying a pontiac motor is poop but everything has its place, and the design is what makes it what it is. the decision was made before most of us were around and thats the way it is. there are hot runners from all types of motors but in general what works speaks for itself, that swhy there isnt a big aftermarket for them, it just plain wasnt a better design.

[allpontiacs]

Alright guys, I'm back and well armed. I took this to Classical Pontiac to find out if this was something new to me or if I was correct in my original thinking....the following is the response I got.

"Pontiacs have and require higher oil pressure than Chevies? First time I've heard that, although it does make some sense but not for the reasons he's thinking. Look in the old HO Racing book "Pontiac High Performance Engine Design and Blueprint Assembly" book and you will find a graph that shows that oil pressure requirements are basically a function of main journal diameter and RPM. If a Pontiac needs higher oil pressure it is because it has larger main journals than a Chevy. As a side note, that book was written by real engineers who understood the science and engineering behind engine design, not by guys who read too many magazines.

He might have a point on the routing of the oiling circuit (I don't have a Chevy oiling circuit diagram to compare to), but so what? Most failures of Pontiac engines are NOT oiling related. On a Pontiac, the oil path goes to the rear main bearing first, then to the driver's side main oil gallery from which the rest of the mains receive their oil.

And what's his point about cavitation? The Chevy oil pump is pretty much the same inside as a Pontiac pump, and as far as the sump goes, I don't know what he's talking about there either. Both engines have the sump in the rear of the pan where the pump is located."

[ReEntry Racer]

Alright guys, I'm back and well armed.

I think you may have brought a knife to a gun-fight!

As a side note, that book was written by real engineers who understood the science and engineering behind engine design, not by guys who read too many magazines.

I'll just note a couple of things here...You got your info from a book, while I've been working since 1963 on piston engines from single cylinder 2-stroke .020 cu.in.(1/10th hp) to 18 cylinder 2800 cu.in. (3000 hp) as well as turbine/turbo-shaft/turbo-prop engines up to 60,000 hp. I'm currently well paid to relate my experiences to young people (like you) each day as an instructor at BCIT. I've been racing anything that moves since I was 12 yrs old, including model airplanes, full scale airplanes (owned and overhauled the engines too) motocross, ice racing, drag racing, AutoX, and am currently road racing my third F-body. Now, what was that about getting my information from magazines? I write curriculum for teaching engines at BCIT...and yes, I do read all that I can, but I have 40 years of experience that I use to sift out the advertising and BS. Oh, and I AM a real engineer, have been since 1973, before you were born.

Most failures of Pontiac engines are NOT oiling related.
And what's his point about cavitation? ... Both engines have the sump in the rear of the pan where the pump is located."
Where are you stats to back up that statement? If it was true, where ARE the failures? As I said, I was hunting for a dry-sump oil system to help the poor flow to my lifters due to the embarassing noises from them in the stop-box at the end of long, high-G loading sessions. When you never let the oil sit in the pan long enough to de-foam, the best engines in the world wouldn't survive long. The usual Camaro/Corvette oil pan has trap doors and/or windage trays built into the stock production pans, while Pontiac only did this with Super Duty or other special engines. Their regular production engines were never designed for high side loading with modern tires and suspensions set up for competition. Yes, I'll egree that all the deficiencies can be worked out with enough effort and money....and I'm glad there are young people such as you who will carry on doing so... I'm just too lazy in my old age. ;)

[79 Z28]

well for me the sport i care about is drag racing, and you see next to no pontiac powered cars at all. street legal or race event alike. :-\ it goes chevy then ford then dodge, then buick/olds then pontiac. im not saying you cant make a strong runner cuz thats what you want to stick with but for power, reliability, range of parts and importantly cost. ill always run a chevrolet power plant :)

[allpontiacs]

Well, those weren't my words...like I said, I took this to Classical Pontiac. I'm always willing to learn, and if anything those guys have the answers. A lot of the big names in Pontiac engines go there, so I hang out there a fair bit... BTW, Pontiacs used baffled pans in most of their engines starting in the early 70's. Before that, they used windage trays. I've got a few oil pans kicking around that I could show you. Never seen a factory windage tray, unfortunately...old stuff is getting hard to come by. At any rate, with a windage tray and a pan with a kicked sump, I'm pretty sure a Poncho could autocross pretty successfully...if I ever have the cash, I'll find out once and for all. In fact, I will have a spare 301 lying about when my 455 is done...maybe I'll go all out and do something completely bizarre! :D

[79 Z28]

racing is the only way to settle this ;D

[ReEntry Racer]

Getting back to allpontiacs 301 and 455 projects, the real solution to the cavitation problems I should have looked into back then for autoX or RR are the Accusump systems in use now. Pontiac isn't the only engine manufacturer with such problems at extreme side loading.
http://www.accusump.com/

Chevys can survive better than most in stock form. My ex-partner's Porsche 944 tossed it's crank during a RR in Seattle a few years back because that engine had a known (but not to us at the time!) problem with oiling #2 main during extended left turns at high gees. Cost to get it racing again was more than the original purchase cost of the car to get a replacement engine. His next race car was an IROC...

[79 Z28]

ive seen those things on some heavy hitter drag cars, puts oil and pressure in there to make sure the motor is supplied with lots of what it needs under extreme g conditions. good system 8)

[allpontiacs]

Yeah, actually I've seen the Accusump setup mentioned before for Pontiacs. Good stuff, might have been cheaper than tossing the Poncho and building a Chebby, eh? :D

[79 Z28]

Yeah, actually I've seen the Accusump setup mentioned before for Pontiacs. Good stuff, might have been cheaper than tossing the Poncho and building a Chebby, eh? :D
hardly, he does want to win ;D